Discussion:
How did the Kurgan know Connor was immortal?
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Dcromer123
2003-06-24 04:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Subject: How did the Kurgan know Connor was immortal?
Date: 6/23/2003 9:53 PM Mountain Standard Time
Hi
before Connor's death, how did the Kurgan know he was Immortal?
I realize this must have been long discussed and answered.
K
In the series, at least, it is clear that immortals can sense 'pre-immortals'.
This sense seems to be a bit variable, being stronger when the plot calls for
it. :-)

Examples are Duncan sensing Michelle in Rite of Passage, and the pre-immortal
piano player in the-name-of-the-episode escapes me.....

DC (in NM)
TBird
2003-06-24 06:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dcromer123
Subject: How did the Kurgan know Connor was immortal?
Date: 6/23/2003 9:53 PM Mountain Standard Time
Hi
before Connor's death, how did the Kurgan know he was Immortal?
I realize this must have been long discussed and answered.
K
In the series, at least, it is clear that immortals can sense
'pre-immortals'.
Post by Dcromer123
This sense seems to be a bit variable, being stronger when the plot calls for
it. :-)
Examples are Duncan sensing Michelle in Rite of Passage, and the pre-immortal
piano player in the-name-of-the-episode escapes me.....
DC (in NM)
Still - that's the series - and the Kurgan seems to know about Connor before
ever seeing him.

So
I'm going with the answer:

It's a Kind of Magic.

TBird <------ how's that?
Jerri
2003-06-24 11:50:56 UTC
Permalink
I watched this again on tv the other day, and it
made me wonder: before Connor's death, how
did the Kurgan know he was Immortal? I
realize this must have been long discussed and
answered.
Not that things work exactly the same in the movie and tv series universes,
but certain Immortals can pick up the vibes of pre-Immortals in the tv
series. Since it is my contention that Immortals do not have to have a 1st
death in order to be fully Immortal in the movie [because I do not believe
that Connor ever actually died ... he was *near death* but never actually
died], the Kurgan would have recognized him by the regular Immortal vibe.
The question may have been discussed at length, but the question of Connor's
death has never been resolved. At least we've never come to a consensus on
the question. Then again, we rarely do come to a consensus on any question
that involves much ambiguity. Some people *do* think Connor died. <G>
--
Jerri
http://home.earthlink.net/~jerlapoint
Klausimus Maximus
2003-06-24 14:36:47 UTC
Permalink
I would say he had to have died. Otherwise, how do you explain the
appearance of aging in Ramirez?
--
Klausimus Maximus,
Christian, Youth worker, Uilleann piper
Moladh an Tighearna, Dia agat- "Praise the Lord, God be with you"
"Live, grow stronger, fight another day." - Methos, "Highlander: The
Series"
Post by Jerri
I watched this again on tv the other day, and it
made me wonder: before Connor's death, how
did the Kurgan know he was Immortal? I
realize this must have been long discussed and
answered.
Not that things work exactly the same in the movie and tv series universes,
but certain Immortals can pick up the vibes of pre-Immortals in the tv
series. Since it is my contention that Immortals do not have to have a 1st
death in order to be fully Immortal in the movie [because I do not believe
that Connor ever actually died ... he was *near death* but never actually
died], the Kurgan would have recognized him by the regular Immortal vibe.
The question may have been discussed at length, but the question of Connor's
death has never been resolved. At least we've never come to a consensus on
the question. Then again, we rarely do come to a consensus on any question
that involves much ambiguity. Some people *do* think Connor died. <G>
--
Jerri
http://home.earthlink.net/~jerlapoint
Klausimus Maximus
2003-06-24 15:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klausimus Maximus
I would say he had to have died.
Okey dokey ... I don't agree, but all opinions go into the hat.
Post by Klausimus Maximus
Otherwise, how do you explain the
appearance of aging in Ramirez?
I don't know how one has anything to do with the other. The appearance of
aging is Sean Connery actually growing older. I don't think we're supposed
to notice. Just as we're not supposed to notice that Duncan MacLeod is
getting long in the tooth. Connor MacLeod looked *so* old in Endgame
because
he was spiritually spent ... ready to shuffle off his mortal coil ...
falling off his perch ... but he still looked older than he did in HL1
because Christophe Lambert was so much older. That's my opinion.
Jerri
I don't know, that just seems like an easy answer to me. But as you say, "I
don't agree, but all opinions go into the hat."
--
Klausimus Maximus,
Christian, Youth worker, Uilleann piper
Moladh an Tighearna, Dia agat- "Praise the Lord, God be with you"
"Live, grow stronger, fight another day." - Methos, "Highlander: The
Series"
Jerri
2003-06-24 17:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klausimus Maximus
I don't know, that just seems like an easy
answer to me. But as you say, "I
don't agree, but all opinions go into the hat."
I like easy answers. It is my considered opinion that not every single thing
was actually intended to be shredded and ground into a fine paste to be put
under a miscroscope for minute examination. Highlander movies are *not*
great movies. No big budgets. No enormous organizations to dot every i and
cross every t. They're entertainment made on the cheap for folks who like
the martial arts and swords and stuff. There's nothing the producers can do
about the fact that the stars of Highlander age as regular folk age. And
there's not a whole lot the owner/operators of the Highlander franchise can
do about the money people being stingy and turning things into things they
were not intended to be.
So there we have it. We got canon in the hands of people who could not care
less [killings taking place on Holy Ground] and the everyday slings and
arrows of absolutely normal misfortune rising up to make the Highlander
experience a little messier than we might wish. It's only a movie ... or 4
movies ... or 4 movies, 2 television series and a cartoon.
Jerri
Klausimus Maximus
2003-06-24 17:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Tru dat!
--
Klausimus Maximus,
Christian, Youth worker, Uilleann piper
Moladh an Tighearna, Dia agat- "Praise the Lord, God be with you"
"Live, grow stronger, fight another day." - Methos, "Highlander: The
Series"
Post by Jerri
Post by Klausimus Maximus
I don't know, that just seems like an easy
answer to me. But as you say, "I
don't agree, but all opinions go into the hat."
I like easy answers. It is my considered opinion that not every single thing
was actually intended to be shredded and ground into a fine paste to be put
under a miscroscope for minute examination. Highlander movies are *not*
great movies. No big budgets. No enormous organizations to dot every i and
cross every t. They're entertainment made on the cheap for folks who like
the martial arts and swords and stuff. There's nothing the producers can do
about the fact that the stars of Highlander age as regular folk age. And
there's not a whole lot the owner/operators of the Highlander franchise can
do about the money people being stingy and turning things into things they
were not intended to be.
So there we have it. We got canon in the hands of people who could not care
less [killings taking place on Holy Ground] and the everyday slings and
arrows of absolutely normal misfortune rising up to make the Highlander
experience a little messier than we might wish. It's only a movie ... or 4
movies ... or 4 movies, 2 television series and a cartoon.
Jerri
Jerri
2003-06-24 17:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerri
Some people *do* think Connor died. <G>
But they're wrong.
I agree, but having reached a kindler, gentler age, I make allowances for
misinterpretation of what is so obvious to me.
Duncan actually died in a scene which paralleled the scene in which Connor
only went kind of inert for a while. A person *might* make the assumption
that since Duncan died, Connor died, too. As you say, that person would be
wrong. Try and convince that person, however. Just try. It's not a slam-dunk
proposition.
Jerri
Mark Jones
2003-06-24 19:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Well, yeah, but that's one of the defining differences between the film
and the television series. In the movie(s), immortals Just Don't
Die--Period--unless you remove their heads. They fall down, they're
wounded, they're stunned, maybe. But they never actually _die_. Even
temporarily.
In the tv show, they die and then get better.
Okay....well....in the first film, we see Connor get run through by the
Kurgan. To my eye, it looks like he dies in that hut.
I see a man who is lying on his deathbed, expecting to die (and expected
to die by those around him), but who doesn't.

In the extended version, we see Connor machinegunned by a Nazi and fall
to the floor...only to wink at the little girl and tell her "it's a kind
of magic" before he ambushes and kills the bad guy. He doesn't look
like a man dying or dead. (Ditto the Kurgan getting hosed down by the
survivalist after capped Castagir inthe alley. He's on his feet and
strong enough to lift the guy on his word literally moments after being
blasted with multiple rounds. I don't think he died. I think he was
shocked, stunned, knocked off his feeet--but nothing more.)
The Kurgan falls and is buried by stone after the staircase collapses, where
he lays montionless for a few moments. He could easily have died.
I see a man stunned by being buried under enough rubble to kill any
normal human being, who then shakes himself and climbs to his feet.
Connor doesn't die when he stabs himself, but it probably wasn't a fatal
wound.
I agree.
In HL2, Connor and Ramirez both die when they are gunned down trying to get
into the Shield Corporation, only to revive in the medical center.
What is this "HL2" of which you speak?
In HL 3 it looked like Connor died when he was gunned down in that alleyway,
only to revive in the hospital.
In HL 4, Kell's Immortals die when they get shot by the Watchers at the
Sanctuary.
As far as I'm concerned, there was only ever one Highlander film. But
in a world where other films _were_ made, I'd suspect that immortals
dying in the later films are evidence of influence on the process from
the television series.

In any case, I _like_ the idea of immortals not dying. I sometimes toy with
how differently many series episodes would have turned out if that were
the case in the series. It would make changing identities a lot harder,
for one thing. As it stands, Carl Robinson can be gunned down by the
police, verified dead, and then his "body" vanishes--but nobody suspects
he got up and walked away. If being gunned down only leaves him "dying"
and gets him an ambulance ride...that ain't gonna happen. He's going to
be listed as a fugitive when he disappears. It also makes it a lot
harder for anything _but_ an immortal (or a mortal hunter) who knows the
secret of beheading to be a real physical threat.
Mark Jones
2003-06-24 20:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Jones
In any case, I _like_ the idea of immortals not dying.
Me, too ... I wish the Immortals were really immortal (i.e. not subject to
death). That an Immortal can be killed if you separate his head from his
shoulders means that he was never really an Immortal to begin with.
Well, yeah, they aren't _literally_ immortal. But using "immortal" to
mean "very hard to kill and not bothered by aging" is a pretty common
use of the word too.
Jerri
2003-06-24 21:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Jones
Post by Mark Jones
In any case, I _like_ the idea of immortals not dying.
Me, too ... I wish the Immortals were really immortal
(i.e. not subject to death). That an Immortal can be
killed if you separate his head from his shoulders
means that he was never really an Immortal to begin with.
Well, yeah, they aren't _literally_ immortal. But using
"immortal" to mean "very hard to kill and not bothered
by aging" is a pretty common use of the word too.
I went to my big ole red thesaurus, hunting for a good alternative...
semipiternal probably wouldn't wash. "I am Duncan MacLeod of the Clan
MacLeod, and I am semipiternal." The word wouldn't come up on the Encarta
search, but there was a cool ad promising I could lose my tummy by July 30.
And I was forced into surfing the web, and when I got to the Dragon*Con site
http://www.dragoncon.org/ I noticed that Anne McCaffrey is a confirmed
guest again, also a whole buncha other folk we've all heard of. When I win
the lottery, I'm gonna buy a big RV and take my dogs to Atlanta.
Jerri
JDChronicler
2003-06-25 01:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Re if HL immortals were truly immortal--Then I expect that none of us would be
here because there aren't six seasons of stories to be told about characters
that can't be threatened by anything. I didn't think that HL had any potential
when I first heard about it because I thought immortality was boring, and
frankly true immortality is boring from a narrative perspective.

Shomeret

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